Is Public Perception of Art of Magic Becoming More Respected?
Inner circle
6013 Posts
Posted: April 22, 2006 07:47 am
0
This is only an stance and is not posted to be argued over. The reason this is posted is to offer and hear stance, I give my word I will respect posting and stance of others if others respect my opinion.
Simply who and what is hurting magic?
Information technology is well-nigh magicians in general and the way that magic and magicians seem to exist. Over the years in magic there are people in magic that have opinions about what is pain magic.
This is my opinion of what is hurting magic. It is the magicians themselves. How are they pain magic? It is non through bad performing. We all started every bit bad performers. And the but way to go proficient is by doing bad performances. And it takes a lot of bad performances to make a skilful performer.
Role of what I think is hurting magic is the general thinking of that bad performers hurt magic. And the insulting and the criticizing of performers that some magicians exercise non like. This could be viewed by any lay audience or any spectator equally seeing magicians equally a grouping look crude, footling and pocket-size people. The insulting and criticizing of other magicians is and then non needed in magic. In an art that the lay audience thinks of as a fun matter to do. I accept asked people what practise they think of magicians in general. Enquire and interview people and yous may exist surprised at their honesty.
Exterior of the few magicians that are the big names that they may know. In general many of the lay audience view magicians every bit jerks. Why? Because we act like jerks. Nosotros often don�t similar other magicians and the fashion that they perform or promote. We often show off magic and perform magic in the manner I am a magician and I am smart - yous are not.
Nosotros have magicians that go into magic - not considering they want to be a professional entertainer but because they accept low social skills. In that location are more magicians doing magic for their own entertainment than magicians that do it equally a living. Understand I am not against this what I am against is how magicians often treat each other.
I would like the lay audition to see magic and magicians as loftier grade people with instruction, skill, and worth the money they pay united states.
Do they see us this manner?
Often movies reflect feelings and the civilisation. I saw a movie about a kid that was a Princess and was going to do a cable TV show with ane of the students. She did not make information technology to the cable show. Merely they had a kid wizard on the cable TV show. And the movie was written to brand the magician await like a dork. Annoying geeks with our bill of fare tricks.
The masked magician went on network TV and drew the highest rating of a Tv special. It fabricated magic look cheap. And we simply exit and purchase props. We magicians are jerks because we know the secrets and the lay audience doesn�t. And so we were shown by the news media every bit being trivial and pocket-size because we complained almost something that nosotros idea should not accept been done.
If the public SEES us as a group of being trivial and small people (Me included) nosotros will be petty and small people in their optics. As a group - nosotros have magicians that do not respect each other. Equally a grouping we take magicians that don�t respect the secrets of magic. Equally a group we have magicians that insult the lay audience while they perform a magic pull a fast one on - that often they do non want to see. Knowing when to do magic is but equally of import as knowing how to practise magic!
I was built-in into a group of very high class, larger than life people. I see magic and people through their optics. These people helped, other magicians larn. These magicians treated other magicians and other people with respect - no matter what their station was in life.
Office of doing magic is to pass on useful information to the young.
So I am going to close this post with a few more than thoughts that might help them. Have it or get out it for what it is worth.
Class never goes out of manner. The more manners and grade you have the better chance there is for you to accomplish success in magic, in whatever job, and in life. People similar to exist around successful people. And many successful people search out other successful people merely to be effectually other positive and successful people.
A lack of respect toward magic is toxic.
A lack of respect toward magic secrets is toxic.
A lack of respect toward other magicians that are successful and magicians that are not, is toxic.
Success in magic is built on a foundation of skill, performed with grade in a business that must be well mannered in social club to be productive and successful.
At present I will get off my soap box and wish everyone makes their magic dreams come true.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Dial Bargain Pro
Publisher of Glenn Bishop'south Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Inner circumvolve
Bar Harbor, ME
2191 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 08:thirteen am
0
I don't spend a lot of fourth dimension thinking about what is hurting magic. There might be people pain magic, or music, or the visual arts, but at that place isn't much that I can do virtually it.
It matters what I choose to practice. I really want to give people a good prove. Sometimes the best way to exercise that is to bring in other performers. I want to perform material that people like, which sometimes means that I can't do some of the things that I like best, because it's not really virtually what I like to do, information technology'due south about what the audience likes.
When I am watching another performer, listening to music, watching a movie, or going to an fine art show, I look for what is practiced, what is effective, what is existence communicated. I see many magicians that aren't my style, merely over the years I have learned to look past that and ask whether the elements of a adept performance for that audience are in that location.
Rather than thinking nearly what is hurting magic, I often think about what would better it. I wish that originality and cocky-expression in presentation and in effects were more widespread. I also think that magic would be improved if magicians would put the magic aside for a bit and attend some other arts events. Magic might be more widely considered an fine art if more than magicians knew more about art. Many magicians could utilize a sabbatical in which they study dance, mime, move, interim, martial arts or visual art and design.
While these are my opinions, they are hardly novel. I have some old magic books whose authors have long since turned to dust who say all this with more force and eloquence.
Yours,
Paul
Eternal Order
Most a river in the Midwest
11174 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 08:25 am
0
Bravo, Dr. Wilson! I'll have ii bottles of any you are selling!
~michael
Eternal Order
20819 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 08:41 am
0
What hurts magic? Goose egg. What tin can help magic? Lots of things. Bravo!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary human activity....George Orwell
Inner circumvolve
6013 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 08:52 am
0
Classy people assistance magic?
Could magic be improved or the public image of magic exist improved if information technology had more classy magicians?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro
Publisher of Glenn Bishop'southward Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Inner circle
2151 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 10:07 am
0
I'chiliad pretty certain the audience has no thought that whatever magicians anywhere accept arguements, nor do they care. A lot of things hurt a variety of performance arts and those things are addressed in the normal manner. This is a process that does exist, will be, and you tin can exist a part of it, or not. We work to better our art, not to do and so would be giddy.
Inner circle
Texas (USA)
1989 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 10:13 am
0
Quote:
On 2006-04-22 08:47, bishthemagish wrote:
This is just an opinion and is not posted to be argued over. The reason this is posted is to offer and hear opinion, I requite my word I will respect posting and opinion of others if others respect my stance.
You sure ask for a lot with that apparently decent and uncomplicated asking. I say this as I once asked for that very aforementioned consideration and came abroad very frustrated with it all. Find I said "once". Today, I ask the other guy for Zippo including your desired respecting of posts. Maybe therein lies part of the problem for you lot Glenn. Your asking is virtually impossible to achieve. Sad but true.
I've said this before, if you lot take time to be part of say a three, 4, or x page online 'discussion' aka heated debate to evidence your bespeak, then you are truley insane considering y'all evidently have an opportunity to practice what you preach as the strongest and most disarming tool to prove your point.
Don't mind or be part of that distressing state of affairs, carry on and have fun with information technology all. About importantly, without their approval, go alee and practise what you preach. Do this starting time for your ain satisfaction and sanity, and second, anyone who likes whta they see and cares to follow your atomic number 82 will practice so.
The residue doesn't matter. Don't brand the mortiferous supposition that anybody wants to learn from y'all OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER. Caf� member's motives for coming into the site vary as much as the props in a magic shop. Some of their motives might even scare you lot plenty to never return. Have fun it with it!
Here'south a gratuitous pass to 'Rancho Relaxo' where the gallon margaritas are to die for!
Inner circle
6013 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 10:49 am
0
Thanks for posting RandyStewart your points are well understood and with the posting of JackScratch of which I agree to of much that is written - forgive me as I am a fool that often seems similar that I practise non agree considering I often forget to mail service that I do agree - I am non the all-time writer.
Only a pupil of magic and human nature.
My best to you all considering I am off the soap box and leave it for others.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro
Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cut And Block Transfer Triumphs
Eternal Lodge
20819 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 03:10 pm
0
Randy you are right. People post for different reasons. I think nosotros all suffer from the sin of PRIDE to some extent.
I mean really why hold an opinion non worth arguing for?
Add a fiddling testoserone and BAM 10 pages in 49 minutes!
A great recipe.
When you hold bliefs so tightly and shut they are convictions, then yes people argue over them. Then when you "percieve" someone slighting them, well again recipe for disaster!
I don't' think closely held beliefs are necessarily a bad affair. It is when you are talking to someone who dosn't sympathise that you lot hold them and then close, that it gets hairy.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a fourth dimension of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Eternal Guild
About a river in the Midwest
11174 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 03:23 pm
0
Randy,
I'll take a couple gallons of those Margaritas, too!
Glenn,
Do you know what's wrong with you? Any it is, don't expect to notice the respond here from me. Why? Considering start and foremost, you probably took law-breaking to me even asking that question. It was out of line and rude. It was a question that I had no place asking, and merely did so for the sake of this case.
Nobody needs someone else pointing out their faults. Nearly of us are aware that we have them, and some of us actively endeavour to remedy that past our own terms. Assumedly, in that location are too those who either don't care, or are bullheaded to the reality of it. Of them, some will somewhen see the light; others never will. Such is life.
The best nosotros tin can practice is EXACTLY what both Paul and Randy accept suggested... work to amend ourselves. At the very least, we will proceeds a certain amount of cocky-satisfaction. All the same, we may one day become a role model for other magicians wishing to emulate us and learn at the feet of their called primary. Lead by case of our ain graphic symbol. Don't broadcast cocky-righteousness. Let those who would intendance to larn make the option of who to come to, and when. That's really the best mode to know if the human relationship is real. Coming to the picnic, kicking the burn ant hill, and then telling anybody that you are leaving it up to them is not cool.
~michael
Inner circle
6013 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 03:48 pm
0
Michael Baker I practice not accept offence at what you or others say. I think what Paul and Randy posted is great.
If you call back I am being self-righteousness that is OK with me.
I am off the soapbox. I said what I wanted to say at present others can postal service if they desire. Mayhap I will learn something as I always practice.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro
Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Eternal Lodge
20819 Posts
Posted: April 22, 2006 03:54 pm
0
Isn't the point here that we ALL larn?
Isn't that why nosotros hash this stuff out?
Isn't that what united states supposed to exist and so helpfull about this procedure?
Again to take out the ego and feelings is tough, but information technology has to exist washed to grow.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal cant, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Loyal user
Greg McNeil Peoria,Illinois
294 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 07:12 pm
0
Quote:
On 2006-04-22 08:47, bishthemagish wrote...This is just an opinion and is not posted to be argued over. The reason this is posted is to offer and hear stance, I give my word I volition respect posting and opinion of others if others respect my opinion.
Although most people here probably respect your right
to take
your opinion, your offering to respect others' opinions
if
they respect your opinion seems unreasonably conditional. Yous've admitted several times how you aren't an especially good communicator, and this might just be 1 of those situations, only really Glenn, leading into a posting this way appears rather arrogant.
Quote:
This is my opinion of what is hurting magic. It is the magicians themselves. How are they hurting magic? It is not through bad performing. Nosotros all started as bad performers. And the only fashion to get good is by doing bad performances. And it takes a lot of bad performances to make a expert performer.
Not true. While it may sometimes hold, not necessarily always, that it takes a lot of bad
rehearsals
to make a good performer, information technology shouldn't take very many bad
performances
at all. If a magician is inexperienced, unprepared, or unskilled enough that he'south probable to do a bad operation, he should be practicing, not performing. Magicians who accept the nerve to actually accuse money for bad performances surely aren't helping amend magic's image in the eyes of the full general public. And if anything damages the public'southward appreciation of magic and magicians, ill-prepared amateur quality hobbyists foisting themselves off as professionals, performing for strangers, for money, might be one of the bigger offenses.
Quote:
Role of what I think is pain magic is the full general thinking of that bad performers hurt magic. And the insulting and the criticizing of performers that some magicians do not like. This could be viewed by any lay audience or any spectator every bit seeing magicians every bit a group wait crude, petty and small people. The insulting and criticizing of other magicians is so non needed in magic. In an art that the lay audience thinks of as a fun affair to do. I accept asked people what do they recall of magicians in general. Ask and interview people and you may be surprised at there honesty.Outside of the few magicians that are the big names that they may know. In general many of the lay audience view magicians every bit jerks. Why? Because we act similar jerks. We often don�t like other magicians and the way that they perform or promote. Nosotros often testify off magic and perform magic in the way of I am a magician and I am smart - yous are not.
Nosotros accept magicians that get into magic - not considering they desire to be a professional entertainer but because they accept depression social skills. In that location are more magicians doing magic for their own amusement than magicians that do it as a living. Sympathize I am non against this what I am against is how magicians often care for each other.
If the public sees magicians on the whole as being jerks, it may be because a lot of magicians are jerks. But... ballet dancers criticize ballet dancers, software writers criticize software writers, weight lifters criticize weight lifters, etc. Many of them criticize each other unreasonably, often in very picayune ways. The general public is almost never aware of that side of any hobby or business, not in weight lifting or ballet dancing, or in magic. They could intendance less. Magicians criticizing other magicians doesn't hurt magic in the mind of the public, because to the public it'south a complete not-result.
So what does hurt magic? Or maybe a more than appropriate question would be, how might nosotros improve the general state of our art and the public's perception of it?
This evening is Sabbatum night. There are a million people playing guitars in a one thousand thousand living rooms at a million parties all over the Us. Probably more 99% of those guitar players suck by any professional standards. Sure they might know a dozen songs, all the words and all the chords, and they tin can play a few fancy riffs. And although there are thousands of wannabes, the vast majority of those guitar players realize it's merely a hobby. They wouldn't dare attempt to charge money to play their handful of songs in any public venue.
On the other hand a lot of magicians frequently accept a much higher view, sometimes a seriously distorted view of their ain abilities. Magicians often consider only a singular criteria, that being the ability to perform some tricks without divulging the method. Once they achieve that level of "competence", magicians often believe their skills worthy of compensation. Magicians who condone theatrical technique and showmanship, the kind of quality entertainment which they should provide, in favor of existence able to fool or deceive or mystify, likely cause more harm to our commonage public reputation than could always come up from any criticizing, analytical, or badmouthing within our ain ranks.
Of course when amateur performers discover themselves in professional positions, it's not exclusively the mistake of the magicians. Those who hire magicians are often pretty poor judges of exactly what is, or is not, good entertainment. Oftentimes a magician is accounted to exist "good" if he can stumble through a half dozen tricks and nobody tin figure out how he did them. Simply it is our job to educate the public, to help them become aware of the departure betwixt expert and bad in our art/industry. If we need a higher level of quality from ourselves, and from each other,
before
offering our services or suggesting that others offering theirs, the public will have a college quality pool of talent to draw from. This may heighten their expectations, and in turn increase their reluctance to rent the next apprentice who tin can fool them with a few tricks.
To improve the way the public perceives magic might crave that we develop a more realistic appraisal of our own abilities. It might crave that we get more than critical of our own work and of each others' work. Of form we should assist the newbies, encourage and mentor and help each other, do what we can to raise the caliber of magic on the whole. Just we should not encourage the neophytes to slap together a few of their favorite tricks and caput out the door, accuse a few bucks for bad performances, and promise that subsequently plenty crummy shows they'll eventually become better performers. Information technology doesn't work that mode in whatever other performing arts, or really in any field of endeavor for that matter, then it isn't reasonable to believe information technology can work that way in the field of professional magic.
Greg
Inner circle
6013 Posts
Posted: April 22, 2006 07:37 pm
0
Quote:
On 2006-04-22 20:12, geemack wrote:
To better the way the public perceives magic might crave that we develop a more realistic appraisal of our own abilities. Information technology might require that we go more critical of our own work and of each others' work.
Cheers for posting and I constitute it interesting. Being disquisitional of our own work is a good idea. Being disquisitional of the work of others at the wrong time may non be such a proficient thought.
Back in the twenty-four hour period when I had employees - had I talked to them the way some magicians talk to each other I would not have had them stay around that long. Magic should be done at the right time and the right place - the aforementioned as giving critical advice in my opinion - at that place is a right fourth dimension and a correct place and a right way.
Many magicians in the Caf� already know this but I am going to say it anyway - I wonder if many could keep their clients if they talked to them in some of the means that I have read - in many forums and here in the Caf�? That of grade is not my personal problem. Equally information technology as well is non really my problem how proficient or bad another magician is. Because if they stick with information technology they will detect the answers that they demand i fashion or another. Here is a useful link that some might observe interesting.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewf......39&6
Forgive me if the link seems arrogant.
Leipzig said to Dai Vernon - Dai I have been doing magic for more than than 50 years - they (the audience) wants to feel similar a gentlemen has fooled them.
Gentlemen magicians on stage and off - what a wonderful idea.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro
Publisher of Glenn Bishop'south Ace Cutting And Cake Transfer Triumphs
Inner circle
4698 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 08:37 pm
0
Glenn, I do capeesh what you are trying to convey. At the same time I do not like what some of the magi hither on the Caf� try to denigrate what you are saying. Granted they might not agree with what you lot are saying merely by the same token they should not bash y'all.
Magic is a vanishing art.
Eternal Lodge
20819 Posts
Posted: April 22, 2006 08:49 pm
0
Oftentimes Glenn by his own admission does not communicate well. When he does not communicate his ideas well, it and then seems as if HE is bashing others and beingness arrogant in the process. Then he spends 400 words to clarify seeming big-headed and misscommunicating all once again.
Then it takes 5 pages to figure it out.
And so yea others bash back at what they percieved a bashing. It is not their error.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a fourth dimension of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary human activity....George Orwell
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27218 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 09:08 pm
0
Quote:
On 2006-04-22 09:52, bishthemagish wrote:
Classy people help magic?Could magic be improved or the public image of magic be improved if it had more than classy magicians?
American order holds class as a taboo subject field.
Let'due south go with magicians who present themselves as socialized gracious and positive people (who happen to do magic).
...to all the coins I've dropped
hither
Inner circle
4698 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 09:fifty pm
0
Hi jonathan. I have recieved many solutions to problems related to magic. Only please why exist so cryptic?
Quote:
American society holds course every bit a taboo bailiwick.
what does that mean. Please take my ignorense(sp). I am not as knowledgeable every bit you so would y'all please enligten me?
thank you.
Magic is a vanishing art.
Inner circle
6013 Posts
Posted: Apr 22, 2006 ten:34 pm
0
Nate Leipzig as well said "If they like YOU they will like your act".
People have to Like the magician in social club to spotter the magician?
(Stars of Magic and Dai Vernon's Tribute to Nate Leipzig).
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro
Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cut And Cake Transfer Triumphs
Inner circle
4358 Posts
Posted: April 23, 2006 12:02 am
0
Quote:
On 2006-04-22 23:34, bishthemagish wrote:
Nate Leipzig besides said "If they similar Yous they will similar your act".People have to Like the magician in order to watch the magician?
(Stars of Magic and Dai Vernon's Tribute to Nate Leipzig).
I will non competition what Leipzig said, certainly non, simply in the real world, I have learned that information technology does not concur truthful in well-nigh cases. At that place are many charming and extremely likeable performers that does not actually have an human activity that you would even call expert. The performer is liked and admired merely not the act. It was the amuse that compensated or even took center stage , for the lack of a adept deed.
In that location are also great acts that does not appeal at all. The reason this time is not the act but the performer. As a director, my job is to bring out the all-time in my performers. Ane instance is this Sorcerer I am working on for a show I am directing for May 19. This child can produce xxx umbrellas.....CLEANLY!Freakin amazing! But he has this Rigor Mortis look. Simply like LURCH from the Adams Family on a bad twenty-four hours! NO smile, no personality and no extentions. The human action itself in the easily of a show man could be really spectacular. The human activity was well structured, fifty-fifty the theme, music, staging etc.... THE WORKS, was all there , except for the charisma and charm.
Another performer from my past shows, did a really boring series of card tricks. This one however performs with bully charm and eloquence. The act itself is nothing about magicians would like to do. Its non even astonishing, simply he was able to capture the audience though. The aftermath..... people were talking about the performer's amuse , not the human activity. The reviews fifty-fifty stated that the act was mediocre but the performer was outstanding.
Is this a case to case basis? I don't know . Is information technology a cultural thing? I don't know either. All I know is that "they" only enhance each other (PERSONALITY $ ACT).
Just my humble opinion gentlemen.
Rannie
Posted: Apr 23, 2006 1:11am
-----------------------------------------------
I take also seen many arrogant magicians, and even highstung "stuck ups" that have really great acts. I did not have to like them to beloved their act. Of course I tin only speak for myself re this.
I wonder if it applies to the lay public. I would like to know.
Till then,
Rannie
Source: https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=160004&forum=27
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